:: ball talk ::

PART II
PART I can be found here.

BT: We know that there are pro gay athletes. But how many?

Muska: I did a show called "Outside the Lines" for ESPN a couple years ago, and the producer said to me that if she wanted, she could have a field day with outing. Just in the Northeast corridor alone. Between Boston and D.C., she said she could've easily outed a significant number of athletes in baseball, football, basketball, and hockey. So, they're there.

BT: Have any professional athletes come out to you?

Muska: When I was at Oberlin, I was amazed at the number of people I heard from. I got a call from the newspaper when the woman with the New York Liberty [GM Carol Blazejowski] was coming out -- they wanted to know if it was a big deal. In women's sports, I don't think it's as big a deal as it is in men's sports.

But getting back to your question, yes, some pro athletes have come out to me -- and I would never share who they were. For people in those situations, they're looking for someone to talk to who they feel comfortable with. As an outlet, in some respects.

BT: What advice do you give them?

Muska: In many ways, I tell them to not come out. But I don't think there was ever a situation where any of them were thinking about coming out. It was more a conversation dealing with what it was like to be in sports and to be gay.

BT: So you would actually not advise a pro athlete to come out.

Muska: I just don't think it's worth going through. I wish it were.

It's kind of like a kid coming out. If the kid's going to come out to his family, it's a scary thing -- you're going to hope that you have a support network around you. Perhaps your parents or teachers at school. I think a pro athlete needs to know they've got that same support mechanism.

Until we see a general manager who brings in people to talk about homophobia in sports, until you see some leadership in pro teams do that, I think that a guy will say, "What's my support base, what's my safety net, what's in my contract to protect me?" Basically, there's nothing.

BT: But do you think that front offices will ever be ready, or do you think this is an issue that eventually will have to be forced?

Muska: I think it will eventually have to be forced. Just look at the hate that's coming up around the whole gay marriage issue. A lot of latent homophobia is really coming to the surface.

The leadership of most teams is smart enough to know where their fan base is, and if they lose those of us that are gay because they took a stand, I don't think they're going to care. Yankee Stadium is still going to fill up even if they don't support openly gay athletes.

It's sad to say, and I would hope that it would happen sooner rather than later, but I don't think we're going to suddenly see the flood gates open up. Every player that's been accused of being gay immediately does whatever he can to deny it. The Japanese baseball player [Kazuhito Tadano] who appeared in the porno film said he was doing it for money: "I was in college at the time and I needed the money. It had nothing to do with whether I was gay or not..."

They're so quick to repudiate it that there's a part of me that says we're a long ways a way from having this be a center-stage issue.

BT: Don't you think that the media would really be behind the player?

Muska: Yeah, I think the media would be much more supportive. But I think there'd also be a lot of media people who would talk about the reality of the situation. They may think, "Oh boy, it's gonna be tough for 'em. What are the fans going to be like? What is going to happen to them in terms of endorsements and their contract?" I think that the media would be realistic enough to see all the hurdles involved.

BT: What are some of the things that you think a team could do to make an environment that is okay for an openly gay player?

Muska: I think you need to have some kind of demonstrated leadership from above. For example, if you ran a series of workshops on sexism, racism, and homophobia -- if it became much more natural in how it was presented -- I think that would be key in terms of making a breakthrough.

I just don't know if there's an easy answer. Clearly, a demonstration of leadership has to be there, and then a demonstration by the team itself that's it's a bit more gay-comfortable and gay-friendly.

BT: One thing about the Japanese player, who is in the minors with the Cleveland Indians: the Indians have a very young team -- and several of the players at both the major and minor league level seemed very supportive of their teammate. Do you think this is a generational issue, where the younger players are more accepting?

Muska: There's no question. There really is a generational gap. But even though these kids are a bit more open to it, homophobia is still rampant in male sports. In the locker room, the ultimate putdown of an athlete is to call him a fag. I dealt with a high school coach a couple years ago who told his kids at half-time, "You guys are playing like a bunch of little fags out there." Well, my god, when you've got that kind of mentality where playing poorly equals "fag"... The sad reality is that people still make that association.

BT: What is your advice to a team that is dealing with the "locker room situation" -- when a gay man's presence might make some guys uncomfortable?

Muska: I was very careful. I get people annoyed at me for saying this, but when I was Oberlin's Athletic Director, I didn't go into the locker rooms. People knew I was gay, and if we won a football game, I wasn't going to go running into the locker room where the kids were walking around in jocks and towels.

I think a lot of people think it was a cop-out that I did that. But why would I make anybody uncomfortable? And professionally, why would I ever have anything interpreted the wrong way? It was just safer to do it that way. I'd be out in the field congratulating people. I'd see them after they came out of the locker rooms. I just didn't go in.

I'm sure there are lots of other gay coaches who are in the locker room with their athletes. Their argument would be that's where they should be. I'm not sure I'd agree with that. But maybe I'm just a little bit more conservative on the issue.

BT: But a gay teammate doesn't have that choice.

Muska: I've known a number of kids who are gay who basically don't want to shower around the team. They're terrified.

BT: It's actually the opposite of what a lot of straight people might think -- there is nothing scarier to a gay athlete than the locker room.

Muska: Oh, absolutely. A gay player would not be thrilled to be in the locker room; a gay player would be scared to be in the locker room.

There's a scene in [the Broadway play] "Take Me Out" which is really funny: Some guys from the team are in the shower -- but not the gay player -- and somebody drops the soap. Everybody has this reaction, because even though the gay player isn't in the shower, the issue is now in their mind.

BT: Fair or not, the situation has become sexualized.

Muska: Right. The locker room is one of the toughest issues in every way, shape, or form. You know who Corey Johnson is?

BT: Yeah. [Corey Johnson gained national exposure in 1999 for coming out while playing for his high school football team in Massachusetts]

Muska: Corey and I are very good friends. We talked about this whole issue, and when he came out to his football team, he said, "Guys, I was in the locker room all last year, nothing ever happened. I was gay then just like I am now. Except, now you know I'm gay."

BT: How will the gay community react to an openly gay player in one of the big four sports?

Muska: For them to become the darling of the gay community might not be such a good thing. Think about the baseball player who finally comes out, and takes that huge risk, and all of the sudden there's a whole bunch of gay guys who aren't you and me, but are perhaps a bit more queeny, and decide that this is great that they have this guy. And they're in the stands, and they're yelling and waving and screaming.

BT: You potentially gain thousands and thousands of fans.

Muska: Yeah, but the ironic part is -- and this is a kind of sad thing to say -- people will jump on the bandwagon not because they're sports fans but because someone's gay.

BT: Right.

Muska: Try as we might in getting the gay male community to be interested in team sports, there's a limited segment of us that are real sports fans. I think there are some gay guys who come back to it later in life, but are they real sports fans? Sometimes no.

BT: But do you think having an openly gay player in one of the team sports might open up sports to young athletic gay men?

Muska: For young kids growing up, they would feel sports are more welcoming and accepting. They would be able to have a poster on their wall of somebody who is their sports hero. Not just because they're in sports, but also because they're in another part of their life, too.

BT: Do you think in your lifetime you'll see some openly gay athletes in the big four?

Muska: I sure hope so. I think in your lifetime you will. You've got about twenty years on me.

BT: (laughs)

Muska: I do think we'll see more post-career out gay athletes.

BT: Is it disappointing that there haven't been more?

Muska: Yes, I'm surprised. Just using the 5% rule. If you take 5% of the retired players from all these different teams -- heck, you can halve that and use a 2.5% percent rule, and get these athletes to come out post-career -- we'd have a far more significant number who could be some form of role model for people. They would show people that you can get through your career and be gay and be successful. That would be helpful.

When Michael Muska was hired to be Oberlin College's Athletic Director in 1998, he unexpectedly fell into the national spotlight: Muska, you see, is gay, and word spread quickly that Oberlin had just hired the first openly gay male Athletic Director in the nation.

Muska came to Oberlin as an accomplished track and cross country coach and college administrator, having begun his career at Auburn and Northwestern. He has trained 20 All-Americans, a 2004 Olympic hopeful, and way back when helped recruit a young Bo Jackson while at Auburn. He has also worked at Brown University and New England prep schools Philips Andover and Milton Academy.

I had the opportunity to catch up with Michael in person, and we spoke about his personal history as a coach and administrator, as well as what the future holds for gays in professional sports.

Michael Muska is a thoughtful, expressive man, and his conversational tone quickly puts company at ease. He has moved on from Oberlin and is now working at Poly Prep in Brooklyn, where his warmth and knowledge are undoubtedly great assets to both the students and faculty.

This interview took place on February 22, 2004.

PART I

BT: Your resume includes coaching track and cross country at several prestigious colleges and prep schools -- Auburn, Northwestern, Andover, Milton -- but you made headlines when you went to Oberlin. What happened there?

Muska: I was hired as the Athletic Director and got a lot of attention because I admitted I was gay. Everybody yelled and screamed that I was the first openly gay male college Athletic Director in the United States. But I had been out when I was at Brown, and people tell me because of that I was the first openly gay male college coach, too. But no one paid much attention to it at that point; it got much more media attention at Oberlin.

BT: Were you out at Northwestern and Auburn?

Muska: I was totally closeted at both places. Particularly at Auburn. I think I was actually terrified of someone finding out I was gay. Living in a Southern community, racism was still an issue there, never mind homophobia.

I got a little more carefree when I got to Chicago, though Northwestern itself wasn't a much more accepting community. It was very fraternity-oriented, very jock-ish, but I think that was probably the first time I was a bit more active and addressed those issues.

BT: How was Brown different?

Muska: I ended up at Brown primarily because I was -- I won't say I was "outed," but it became apparent to people at Northwestern that I was gay. It was creating discomfort for a lot of people, and I realized that it made sense for me to go to a place that was more accepting.

BT: So when you went to Oberlin, were you planning on being as visibly out as you ended up being?

Muska: It kind of spun out of control. I remember the last question they asked me before we broke up the first set of job interviews: "Is there anything else you'd like to share with us?" A lot of friends had said, "Whatever you do, don't talk about the gay thing." And I thought, I might as well raise the issue because I'm not going back in the closet. I'd been out at Brown, I'd been out at the two prep schools. I had no intention of going back and sheltering my life again.

So I said, "You probably should know this about me. If it's an issue, so be it. If not, then we move forward." And, you know, it's Oberlin, so nobody really got too hyper about it.

BT: And then you were hired?

Muska: I went back to Oberlin for the second interview, and it was amazing to me how quickly the word had spread. There was some clear antagonism from the coaching staff, particularly the male coaches. They thought it was tough enough for Oberlin coaches to recruit kids, now they'd have a gay Athletic Director, too.

I remember the basketball coach at the time, though, was a real gentleman, and he said, "When I went to Oberlin, they had to deal with issues of racism and who I was. This isn't any different. If the guy's the right choice to be Athletic Director then that's what should decide it."

In the long run, I ended up getting the job. But then an Assistant VP at the college was speaking with someone at the Chronicle of Higher Education, and just said in passing, "We're so liberal right now we just hired a gay Athletic Director." The Chronicle just ran with it. Mind-boggling. The next thing I knew it was the lead article on their Web site. Then, of course, other media groups picked up on it.

And that's where it just kind of exploded. I have to admit I was kind of amazed by how quickly it spread and who jumped on top of it -- including the infamous Fred Phelps [from God Hates Fags], who decided he was going to protest at Oberlin. I was thinking, "Whoa. What's going on here?"

BT: So even though you were out in your personal life at Brown, you experienced a public "outing."

Muska: Yeah. I have to admit that when the Chronicle made that big a deal about it, I was a little surprised. And I think the reaction was mixed even at Oberlin. For being an incredibly liberal place, there were some people who had some issues with it. But I wasn't the one who started the "outing."

BT: How did the students respond to you?

Muska: The kids were terrific. The student-athletes' captains got together and they said, "Mr. Muska, if there's anything we can do, let us know." For most of the kids, it was a non-issue because Oberlin was... Oberlin. They had gay friends. They had other people on campus that they knew were gay. There were other gay administrators on campus.

BT: You left Oberlin after four years to become an assistant headmaster at Poly Prep in New York. Are you still coaching?

Muska: No. I could, but my duties are just so time-consuming. Obviously some kids still come in to see me for athletic advice because they all know my background. When a college coach tries to give a student a hard time, I'm able to say, "Wait a second. Cut the crap." I've been around it -- I know what's going on.

BT: I imagine a difference between Oberlin and Poly Prep is the amount of contact you have with students.

Muska: Probably, except at Oberlin I taught two senior seminars -- one on homophobia in sports and the other on the history of the modern Olympics. The first year I was there, I coached cross country, and then I realized it was too much time to be the Athletic Director and coach at the same time. But I went to a lot of the contests, and the kids knew me.

BT: Thinking about what the Chronicle of Higher Education did, what is your general opinion on outing?

Muska: I've always been opposed to outing. I got really annoyed last year with Out Magazine when [its Editor in Chief] Brendan Lemon came out and said he was dating a pro baseball player. I think what you do in your private life is your own business.

BT: Was it in part bragging?

Muska: Yeah, very much so. I thought it was actually very offensive. In fact, I initially cancelled my subscription, but then I thought, "Well, I like the magazine, so..." They should just fire him.

But anyway, I think that outing is a real issue, whether it's in politics or in athletics. People say that when you become a public figure, you become fair game. I still think there should be some respect for privacy in somebody's personal life.

BT: One of the things that's so interesting, though, is that your outing has led to a lot of good. How do we balance that?

Muska: I think that I was in a position and in a community where it could be done in a positive way. But even so, I remember a trustee wrote a letter to Oberlin's President while I was there. The trustee basically said, "I have lots of gay friends. They do my taxes. They do other things for me. But why do we have to have a gay Athletic Director at Oberlin?"

Come back tomorrow for Part II, where Michael and I discuss the current climate for gays in professional sports.

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